Wowwo court case costs questions
Since yesterday the overdue section states.
I have not received any email regarding this matter even tho Wowwo is still owing me money. Has anybody received the email mentioned on the website?
Mintos Marketing what is going on and also: what does this exactly mean? Do we need to pay money now in order to get our money back???
*In the meatime I have received an email. Since there are many questions that might raise out of this situation I updated the post and title to refelct that
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Hallo.
Ich habe heute diese Mail erhalten, aber es ist alles auf englisch und es ist ein ziemlich langer Text, aber meine Kenntnisse in Englisch sind nicht so gut, dass ich alles richtig verstehe.
Wie kann man den Text in Deutsch umwandeln?-1 -
If most investors contribute the needed 1.71% there would be very little of the recovery sum left to distribute to the ones who contributed extra, because everyone who contributed 1.71% would get 100% of their share and there would be no 30% of their recovery sum left to distribute to the ones who payed more. How would this situation be handled? Pay back the extra contributed amounts before, if they are not needed?
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So it looks like Wowwo might have been speculating on this all along, hoping there won’t be enough investors so they can get away with not paying it all back?
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@Mintos
I would like you to add more information and also answer a couple of questions:
1.) Please add some examples on how this would play out in different scenarios, given one would help finance (normal share or higher) or not. I would suggest doing this for:
0% recovery (case lost)
25% recovery
50% recovery
75% recovery
100% recoveryAlso include time frame and estimated inflation as optinal factors. In the last 5 years turkish lira has lost 80% of its value in EUR.
2.) How long do you estimate the time frame until we get a decision by the court?
3.) Does Wowwo (it's investors) even have the money to pay? And also: who are you actually sueing in court and who is liable? Only the company and it's assets (which might be next to nothing once the court concludes) or also the persons behind it? I am not familiar with turkish law.
4.) In your mail you write: "To additionally claim the penalty amount, which is up to..." ----- what is this penalty amount and who will it benifit in case it gets paid?
5.) Please provide users with information in the language they have signed up on!
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Should the 1,71% of my amount stay on my account on? Will you get the money from my account were not invested money is? I send the money from my bank to my Mintos Account. Is this the right way?
I submit to the 1,71% in your survey.
I wish all the best luck!!0 -
Let me see if I get this right.
Either we give 1.71% for a legal suit that should be Mintos responsibility to handle and account for, or 30% of our expected returns will be taken away and supposedly given to other users?How does Mintos have legitimacy to take the money we are owed and give it to someone else?
Where in the terms and conditions is Mintos entitled to beg the users for law suit money when they already take a share of all base loan interests of the users?It seems to be the beginning of a very bad precedent in the way Mintos handle default cases.
This falls very far from the expected behavior of a serious business.
I have been loosing faith in Mintos for a long while now, yet they still manage to surprise me.4 -
@Mintos!
Answer to all questions of the investors about the advanced court charge of 1.71% of the claim so we can take decision! You have not the right to put us in such situation like this! It will be the same if now I write that if you not answer to my comment it will be considered that you own me extra 30% of the amount that I'm waiting from Wowwo!!!3 -
I think many people will find this survey very confusing.
As already mentioned, it would be nice to see real numbers before we can make a decision, say based on exposure of €1000, with various recovery amounts, various contribution %.
1) if the total court fee is 6.831% of the total claim and one-fourth of that needs to be paid
by Mintos on behalf of Mintos investors, who is paying the remainder three-fourths (5.13%) ? why even mention the total court fee if it is not relevant ?2) you state: "In the case that we’re unsuccessful, Turkish law states the minimum amount that will be deducted is currently 269 Turkish lira, and the rest will be repaid"
Did I read that correctly, 269 Turkish lira ? It is like pennies and practically means (except for the possible loss in exchange rate) we would all be fools not to contribute to the court fee.
So the real question is what is the potential maximum amount that can get deducted ?3) what are statutory costs ? the mentioned minimum 269 Turkish lira or something else ?
4) what happens with the situation that investors overcontribute, meaning the total sum is much more than €500k ?
5) how long do investors have to make a decision before mintos declares them as non-contributers ?
6) what exactly does it mean "30% of the recovered amount will be designated for legal costs and will be proportionally distributed to the litigation financiers" ?
I thought we were only contributing to the court fee which gets repaid anyways ? Not to meantion the email mentions legal costs are covered by mintos.7) you state: "The more you choose to contribute, the more of this 30% you'll receive"
Does it basically mean no single investor can reach 100% recovery ? To me the explanation of the 30% distribution to financiers is very unclear and confusing.
So, what is the expected total loss to investors and again what are all the costs that need to be covered ?1 -
In case of win, what's about reparations from Wowwo side for their monkey tricks to all of us? I don't think sufficient compensations were included in present court case. If we will get only regular money, then many other could easily copy such mentality regarding payback.
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I agree with the question raised above:
- I don't really have a problem with the 1.71% fee and I understand the costs involved are quite big. However, in the mail there is no reference of our Terms and Conditions. What did we sign, what are Mintos' responsibilities? Can Mintos decide to no longer cary the costs, we pay them for in every note?
- can Mintos suddenly take 30% of peoples money as 'litegation costs'?
- This part, maybe the most important part, doesn't make sense:
What will I get if contribute my share of the court fees (1.71% of my exposure to Wowwo)?
In the case of a full or partial recovery, if you choose to pay 1.71% of your exposure to Wowwo, you will receive your contribution of the court fee back, minus statutory costs and potential exchange rate changes. You will also get back your proportionate share of the whole recovered amount, which is the recovered amount times 1.71%. Those who do not contribute will receive only 70% of the recovered amount.
- I get back the "recovered amount times 1.71%"? That makes no sense at all. If I pay my 1.71% share, I expect to get 100% of the recovered amount, be it full or partial of my outstanding funds.
- When will this continue? By which day do I have to officially (dis)agree?
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I think it’s obvious that wowwo case should go to court and the fee in question is too high for Mintos to pay it ( it you look at mintos profit and revenue - and it is not big business, their profit is just few hundred thousands, not millions ) so we have no choice but to help pay this fee . The big question is wowwo a financialy-savvy business- is there any real assets , because even if we win in court that does not mean wowwo will pay - and if you think about it , if you steal 18 million euros , it is most likely gone, think
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Dear Investors,
Thank you for sharing your questions and concerns. Our team is working to address them soon. We appreciate your patience and understanding.0 -
We do not understand. You should have been prepared for questions.
We expect answers asap.1 -
Still no answers. Mintos, why do you constantly spit in our faces?
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Hi, I have to say I am reading this thread in disbelief. I didn't get any email from Mintos and I am affected by the Wowwo case, and quite so.
Apart from the fact that I find totally unprofessional and unethical to ask us (the investors whose funds are at risk) for money for the litigation (that should be managed and assumed by Mintos as the ultimate responsible for the platform and the loan originators), I feel like I have no idea what is going on and I should have decided/indicated (where?) if I wanted to contribute or not.
Can someone kindly copy and paste the whole contents of Mintos' email so those in my situation can at least get updated on what's going on?
I'd appreciate it. Thanks.
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Copy of email, as requested by Ignacio Nieto Carvajal: Lawsuit action update against Wowwo
Hi Martin,
You are receiving this email as an investor with exposure to Wowwo.
As you know, we have decided to go ahead with a commercial lawsuit in Turkey against Wowwo. The process will start at the beginning of 2024. According to estimates from the Turkish lawyers hired by Mintos, the commercial court will render its decision within 2 to 3 years. If appealed, appeal procedures are likely to last between 18 and 24 months. There is a chance the lawsuit will be prolonged, depending on the courts’ workload.
To initiate a commercial lawsuit in Turkey, it’s required by local laws to pay an advance court charge of 1.71% of the total claim amount. We’re presenting you with the option to contribute a share of the court charge and should the lawsuit end in our favor, you would receive a higher recovery amount.
The total amount of the claims against Wowwo as of 31 December 2023 will be €31 million. The principal amount and the accrued interest for the Wowwo claim is €18.4 million, thus the court charge will be €315 thousand. Should there be a larger amount contributed, we can claim additional outstanding late interest, which as of today is more than €10 million. The lawyer fees so far have been paid, and will continue to be paid by Mintos.
More detail on the recovery is explained by the examples in annex A in the Agreement on Litigation Funding.
Your exposure to Wowwo amounts to €917.
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If you contribute 1.71% of your exposure, your contribution amount would equal €16.
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If you contribute 5% of your exposure, your contribution amount would equal €46.
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If you contribute 10% of your exposure, your contribution amount would equal €92.
Click here to calculate different options and recovery amounts.
Contribute If you have any questions, please let us know, and we’ll be happy to help.
Best regards,Your Mintos team
What is the court fee?
Under Turkish law, a court fee of 6.831% of the total claim is required to cover the costs related to the litigation. One-fourth, or 1.71% of that amount, needs to be paid from the claimant, which is Mintos on behalf of Mintos investors. If we’re successful, the full court fee will be repaid. In the case that we’re unsuccessful, Turkish law states the minimum amount that will be deducted is currently 269 Turkish lira, and the rest will be repaid.
Please note that Mintos cannot guarantee the results of this case. We have hired the top lawyers and have done a great deal of research and preparation work, but we cannot guarantee the court’s judgment will be in our favor.
What is the court charge?
Under Turkish law, a court charge of 6.831% of the total claim is required to cover the costs related to the litigation. One-fourth, or 1.71% of that amount, needs to be paid from the claimant, which is Mintos on behalf of Mintos investors. No matter the outcome of the case, the full court charge will be repaid. In the case that we’re unsuccessful, there is a small deduction applied before repayment of the charge, which will be covered by Mintos.
Why doesn't Mintos pay the court charge?
Mintos has been paying and will be continuing to pay all the legal expenses related to enforcement of the debt, which in total could accumulate to an amount of around €200 thousand. Paying a court charge of 1.71% of the claim is not possible from our resources.
Can you explain the risks involved in contributing to the court charge and in the recovery? What are the possible risks for taking part in the litigation process?
The primary risk is the possibility of fluctuations in the exchange rate. No matter the outcome of the litigation, the court charge will be repaid to Mintos in Turkish lira, even though the initial payment will be made in euros. Any fees withheld from repayment of court charge will be covered by Mintos. With today's exchange rate, the court charge of €315 thousand is equal to approximately 10 million Turkish lira. However, after the litigation, the exchange rate might have changed and when converted back to euros, could be significantly less than today’s €315 thousand.
Can you explain how the recovery process would work?
On top of getting back the contributed court charge, upon successful completion of the litigation, 30% of the recovered amounts would be divided among the litigation financiers, i.e., contributors to court charge, proportional to their contribution to the court charges. The remaining 70%, unless any legal costs incurred, would be divided among all affected investors proportional to their exposure. The approach is based on the principles of litigation financiers.
Please see the Excel file, which describes the various scenarios and where you can input your exposure numbers.
Scenario 1: What will I get if I contribute my share of the court charge (1.71% of my exposure to Wowwo)?
In the case of a full or partial recovery, if you choose to pay 1.71% of your exposure to Wowwo, you will receive your contribution of the court charge back, minus potential exchange rate changes. You will also get back your proportionate share of the whole recovered amount.
Scenario 2: Can I contribute more, and what would the benefits be?
If you wanted to contribute more than 1.71% of your exposure, you would be entitled to receive a larger share of the recoveries proportional to your contribution.
If you decided to contribute more than your proportional share of the exposure, besides getting back the court charge and your proportional share of the recovered amount, you would be entitled to receive an additional share of the recoveries proportional to your excess contribution to the court charge. 30% of the recovered amount will be designated for legal costs and will be proportionally distributed to the litigation financiers. The more you choose to contribute, the more of this 30% you'll receive, which is a common practice in the litigation financing sphere.
Scenario 3: What happens if I don't contribute to the court charge?
In the case of a full or partial recovery, if you choose not to contribute, you would receive approximately 70% of the recovered amount of your exposure to Wowwo, as the first 30% of recoveries and other related costs would be designated to other legal costs.
Does Wowwo have sufficient assets in order to repay the whole outstanding debt? What steps were taken in order to assess this before proceeding further?
Based on the information we have from the publicly available financial statement of its parent entity, Wowwo should be able to repay the outstanding debt. Nevertheless, there is a risk that Wowwo will go out of business during the court proceeding period, either intentionally or unintentionally. In that case, the court charge would be repaid.
Can I as an investor incur a loss bigger than my total exposure?
No, you cannot not incur a loss bigger than your total exposure.
What are the chances of actually winning the case in Turkey, given the fact that Mintos acts as a foreigner and Wowwo is a Turkish lending company?
Currently, we and the Turkish lawyers believe it’s possible to recover funds. Mintos has chosen a professional team of lawyers in Turkey from the Legal 500 and have done a great deal of research and preparation work, giving us confidence of a favorable outcome for this case. But please note, we cannot guarantee the outcome of the litigation.
What happens if not enough money is collected for the court charge?
If we’re not able to collect the amount needed to bring the claim for the whole amount of the exposure, Mintos will have to submit the claim for a smaller amount of money. In other words, a smaller amount than what Wowwo owes. A lower court charge would mean a lower recovery amount. We’ll look into other options to recover as much as possible, but please note that options are limited and the best chance we have of recovery is for investors to contribute to the court charge.
What other options has Mintos considered?
We have reached out to litigation financiers who work with cases like these. However, litigation financiers are not working with Turkish litigations.
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Martin Anthony Hounsell thank you very much. Now at least I understand what is going on. So if I read correctly from my Mintos "Wowwo overdue" section, the opportunity to collaborate has finished already, even though the deadline was the 8th of January:
Although the deadline for contribution is 8 January 2024, if the contribution amount reaches the maximum limit, the opportunity to contribute to the court charge will close earlier.
Another example of terrible customer support experience from Mintos. I would have liked to participate. Now I just have to accept that I will lose extra 30%.
I am glad I am getting my money out of this platform and into more serious ones.
Can we get some feedback from this disastrous management of the situation from Mintos please?
Thanks again Martin 🙏
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Ignacio Nieto Carvajal It seems the process is still open. This is the link to contribute: https://www.mintos.com/en/wowwo-contribution
It's in the e-mail quoted above, in "Contribute".
You may need to research why you didn't receive the e-mail or ask Mintos about that.
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Lucja (Mintos)
What's about future interests (after December 31th 2023) regarding total claims about €31 million?
If you say, it will take 24 months for decision or maybe longer depending on reaction by Wowwo, then future interests for those €31 million are not neglectable.
However, as I understand, the above considered court fees are only for those claims against Wowwo as of 31th December 2023 €31 million, but not for future interests until they will have paid.
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Danielsc oh, that is great, so I still have a chance anyway. Thanks a lot. Got the link, thank you.
I have reached a point where I no longer think asking Mintos for stuff is useful anymore. After Wowwo, Kviku, etc, and how they have managed these situations (plus the fact that they had these companies in a conservative portfolio in the first place, and they still won't allow you to restrict or remove countries from your automatic portfolios like... Well, like Russia for example) I am trying to recover as much of my money as possible and investing it in more reliable platforms.
Thank you very much both of you, I feel like, even though I am late to the party, there's still time to collaborate.
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I missed it. I really cannot believe my eyes, what just happened - they offered 30% of my exposure to other people on a first come, first served basis for just a fraction of that exposure without my consent or at least giving me some granted period during which I can decide to take action or not. This is ABSOLUTELY unacceptable. I feel cheated, robbed and disgusted. They even did not mention that this can happen in the first email. They can shake hands with Wowwo.
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Still no answers..
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This whole process seems unfair. Investors fighting against each other.
the first 30% of recoveries and other related costs would be designated to other legal costs.
This seems an arbitrary designation. They aren't necessarily legal costs, they're just legal costs because Mintos calls them legal costs. By the same logic you could call 90% of Wowwo money 'other legal costs' and redistribute them among investors. The higher the number, the more aggressive is this in-fighting game. I accept that Mintos ultimately chose the rules, but it could have helped to try lower numbers first, or the lowest numbers that makes the 'game' work in this particular case.
I understand the need to punish investors who don't contribute their part of the legal costs. Otherwise we have a 'free-rider/freeloader' problem, because those non-contributors would still benefit from the results of the court, without having contributed to the court fee. You can't just force everyone to contribute to the court fee now, because the money needs to willingly come from users' uninvested amount (which may be 0. And well… maybe Mintos can't just take it. The uninvested money belongs to the user). So you need to let others contribute more, and punish those who contribute less. I'd like to hear about other ways of handling the situation.
they offered 30% of my exposure to other people on a first come, first served basis
This is the unfair part, I think. Mintos stopped accepting contributions when they reached the court fee. Why should people who came later have to lose their 30%?, if they really want to contribute to the court fee.
Maybe a better system could have been: collect money from everyone (put it into escrow), then see how much Mintos collected and who contributed, and immediately return the extra collected money that exceeds the amount you wanted to collect. So, instead of "how much money you'll contribute", you could have asked "how much money you'll contribute at most. We may use a smaller amount if enough other users offer to contribute". E.g. I must contribute 5 €. But I'm willing to contribute 20 €, so I write 20 €. But days later Mintos says "almost everyone (97%) offered to contribute, so you don't need to contribute 20 €, you just need to contribute 6 €, we'll take 6 € from your account". It would be 5 € if 100% users had contributed, but only 97% did, so some users will be contributing more than their share, and the users who didn't contribute (and only those) will be losing money (the 30% thing, to be given to those who contributed). The math and planning is complex but not too much.
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Whilst I agree with your sentiment, I can also see that it would be very difficult to Mintos to manage it another way.
I contributed more than my fair share, but not so that I could take advantage of other lenders or make more money, but because I was concerned that most lenders' attitudes would be that they didn't want to waste more money going after bad money & I don't want Wowwo to get let off the hook; don't forget that there is a big risk that I might not see any of it back.
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To be fair, after I contacted support, they offered me another opportunity to contribute up to value of my share. However, aftertaste remains.
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Bohumir Buso thanks a lot for that info. When I tried to add my contribution, the system said I couldn't do it because the court fee goal had already been reached. I will contact them.
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Lucja (Mintos)
Not giving any comment within acceptable time gives the feeling that you try to ignore your customers. Yes, at the end of the day, you are paid by us.
I repeat my question from 3(!) months ago:
In case of win, what's about reparations from Wowwo side for their monkey tricks to all of us? I don't think sufficient compensations were included in present court case. If we will get only regular money, then many other compamies could easily copy such mentality regarding payback, because there will not be any significant loss for them.
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Lucja (Mintos)
I repeat my question from 2(!) months ago:What's about future interests (after December 31th 2023) regarding total claims about €31 million?
If you say, it will take 24 months for decision or maybe longer depending on reaction by Wowwo, then future interests for those €31 million are not neglectable.
However, as I understand, the above considered court fees are only for those claims against Wowwo as of 31th December 2023 €31 million, but not for future interests until they will have paid.
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After trying to talk to Mintos and make them understand that I didn't receive the email that informed about the legal fees contributions in the Wowwo case I received the same answer (our systems indicate that not receiving our email was your problem, so bad luck). Absolutely unprofessional.
I don't expect anymore any kind of professionalism or good practices from Mintos, and after 15k in loses I have migrated to more serious platforms and would recommend you to do the same.
Perhaps some day (in 2, 3, 5, 10 years?) Who knows... I will recover part of my money, but I am not holding my breath for it.
It is a shame I trusted my money to this platform just because it is well-known.
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@Mintos
You ask for following rules and respectful treatment. (https://help.mintos.com/hc/en-us/community/posts/15872611064209-Creditter-EcoFinance-Lime-Zaim-Kviku?page=4#comments)
You should know both sides are responsible for that. You should honestly admit that your way of communication needs to be improved and that cooperations with investors is required for that purpose. Otherwise, further investigations don’t make sense. Talk to investors in a direct way about what they need to feel comfortable to invest money on Mintos platform in future.It is unrespectful from your side that investors have always to ask to get additional information. In case of Wowwo, information is quite unregular. Of course, court matter takes often long time for waiting and there are only little changes. However, you could reduce lots of (repeating) questions from investors (which are quite nervous due to losing their money), if you would tell monthly from your side about current state, what you are you waiting for etc. (It doesn't matter if there is no change since previous update, however many investors will see, there is still a frequent movement and effort on Mintos side. You could think your way and frequency of reporting is sufficient, but that's not the point of view from investors side. So please listen to us in order to reduce trouble and to make the best out of present situation, working together as partners.
It is very unrespectful from your side that investors are treated as applicants. (Maybe you don’t see it, but many investors feel like that.) It should be absolutely clear: we are your customers, you are paid by our investing, your compony would not earn any money without the investors. Therefore, treat us seriously on the same level playing field as you are, if you ask for respectful treatment and if you seriously pursue to do business with us.
It is very very unrespectful, whenever questions are not answered for couple of months, no reaction (nothing happens!) It is OK, if you say that you need some time to answer questions. However, if you let investors know about you need some time, they will not think you are not interested in answering. However, please mention how long it will take that investors will get answer to individual questions. It is OK if you reply at the beginning e.g. investor will get answer within the next week, as long as there is no open time window for (maybe) getting an answer.
It's very very very annoying for investors to wait but nothing happens from your side and they have no information, what’s going on at your side and why is there no reply.
It is very very very very unrespectful, if there is still not any reaction even several weeks later after complaining about the fact that someone waits already several months without any answer.
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