What happens now to Claims?
I still have hundreds of Investments in Claims, some in automated strategy, others in Custom strategies.
The Mintos website says Claims cannot be sold in the Secondary market anymore. So what happens now? Am I stuck with these Claims investments until the Remaining Term expires, for years?
Hi Undis (Mintos), Martins Sulte (Mintos)
To be clear, i represent companies who each have invested, on my advice, 6-figure amounts to Mintos. Yes, these amounts, even in total, are not groundbreaking for Mintos, but still not pennies..
At the moment further investments to Mintos are put somewhat on hold. We are not panicking, but still this Claims liquidity issue has caused some bitter taste.
So please find some solution.
Repackaging to Notes possibility should be very-OK from regulator point of view. Less unregulated assets the better. Yes, I understand that it is extra work for you: negotions with LOs, software developments, legal etc. But i think that this is greatly worth it. Some claims had duration 10 years. For example our portfolios still consists 95% of Claims. So it is not too late. Better late than sorry..
Undis: and we’d be happy if investors recognized this too.
this not how Investor relation management works ;)
Undis: Unfortunately, it does not work, because each investor has different claims, some claims are bought out completely, some are just partially, and finally, different investors have different claims.
No-one has proposed automatic repackaging. This should be manual process initiated by investor. I.e investor asks for a quote based on his/her portfolio. For example there could be restrictions to that this swap can be only inner-LO. For example if i have portfolio of Creditstar loans with average interest rate Y% then i can convert them to Notes with current 17% rate involving losing X% equity. Anyways, it is a solvable problem if you have talented-enough business analysts.. And if you do not have that, I can offer my services.
Disclaimer: we probably would never use that feature, because i understand that there would be some buffer-margins, fees etc, so it would not be financially lucrative, but i still advocate that investors should have this kind of possibility..
For example i decided, after receiving end-of-Claims notification, not to sell the Claims at discounted rates but vice-versa, we were on the buy side to buy discounted Claims, so we are prepared to stay with Mintos on long run, so i hope that our voice is also heard littlebit..
Martins: If you believe Mintos violates applicable laws and regulations, you can refer your complaint to the FCMC by emailing email@example.com or by submitting a complaint using the online forms available on the government service portal http://www.latvija.lv
yabadabadoo, this kind of proposals are never constructive..5
Minutos shutting down the secondary market for Claims is the same as spitting in every investor's face. I am stuck with Claims that I cannot trade or sell for years.
I feel tricked and cheated, there was no reason whatsoever to shutdown the secondary market for Claims.
The only reason I am still here is the thousands of Euros stuck in Claims, you can be sure not a single Euro more will enter my account.3
"Something is really fishy here people are loosing huge amounts of money or they are locked for many years(20!!!) so they forget the whole issue … "
You invested knowingly in something that's a 20-year loan and now complain about it?
It's never a given that a loan can be succesfully sold in the secondary market, be it notes or claims. It's not like there's excessive demand, unless you sell it with a double digit discount. Honestly speaking, your level of experience on Mintos is quite low, if you assume selling loans happens at the snap of your fingers. You must always anticipate an investment is for the full term.2
This has happened waaayyy too fast.
Within 1 month Notes was launched, and Claims secondary market was pushed out.
This means within 1 month I had to sell all my claims or be stuck with all my claims until they are run out.
I was not expecting this at all. I expect this to have at least 6 or 12 months notice. I like Mintos because I don't have to daily check it. But if they are doing shit like this I get wayyy scared.
Secondary market was always good available.
If this is due to regulations, then the regulator is doing a fucking shit job in protecting the investors.2
I have made my decisions to invest into some longer term loans based on the fact that I could always sell them on the secondary market; that's also why I'm using mostly Custom automated strategies because with Minto strategies I have no control over loan durations.
Therefore, I'm very interested to see how the cashing out for my Custom automated strategies will work.
Closing the secondary market should have been made much clearer. I don't recall receiving an email explaining this change in detail. I only found out the real implication of this change after it had already been closed.
I understand that this was not your intention and that the regulator forced you to close the secondary market. But it was your decision to go ahead with the changes regardless. Investors should have had a chance to liquidate their current investments before the new rules kick in. Mintos should have delayed becoming a regulated business until this was completed for all investors.2
Hello Undis (Mintos),
I think you misunderstood my proposal. What I mean is a buy-back campaign for ALL customers, ask who is willing to sell back Claims to Mintos, and then take all those Claims from all customers and re-package as Notes available to invest again.
Each user can then widthraw the money, or alternatively the money from the buy-back would be locked in each user account (cannot be widthrawn), and would be used exclusively to invest back in Notes.
To be honest, ANY solution is better than leaving your users locked with millions of €uros in Claims that cannot be traded.
Option 2 is to ask the LOs for them to buy back the Claims. But that depends on that having a finantial advantage for the LO, which I don't know.2
So your option was to blindside everyone and make it impossible for every investor to continue to operate in Mintos' Secondary Market, which was THE ONLY REASON WHY THE PLATFORM WAS GOOD!!!
With Claims locked you are effectively holding investors hostage and simply killed your reputation.
Very bad move, may very well be the end of Mintos.1
Magnate we first launch Notes in EUR currency as absolutely vast majority of investments are in EUR. We expect to launch Notes in other currencies thereafter.1
where my money1
it was a statement of opinion, which you apparently didn't grasp. As for being on-topic, I've fully been that now.
It's so bleeding obious how some of you less seasoned loan investors are feeling let down, but the reality is that the secondary market wasn't a given. Not to mention there has to be demand, not just supply. One had to be ready for possibly ending up having the loans until their maturity. Japke made a good comment on the subject.1
Mw, Mintos did actually say all of this. That secondary market for claims will be closed due to the strict regulations they have to follow.
Custom Strategies never had a cash out function as I can recall, just the Mintos Strategies. To me in general it's best to go for short loans like 1 month... Longest 3 but I don't have set up customised that go longer than 3 and also not much invested in those.
To my experience in general it's best to go for short term - also now with the loan notes - keep it short, you also get the pending money back faster, since I swapped to this it is going a lot more smoothly.
Secondary market isn't needed by any means, well I do have to wait for claims to run out also because for whatever reasons some aren't paid back over 60 days, got buyback guarantee on all of them... Let's see If it will still work for old claims.
What I can say to the notes till now is that I keep them short term, it seems to generally run a lot better and faster with pending payments and getting money and interest back from notes than it was before with claims.
Yet what I got to say I don't like this much is the 50€ barrier (or other currency barrier that will exist, when those notes kick in. Euro is the biggest market currency here and I wouldn't be too sure all of the former currencies will be available in notes very soon).
The 10€ was just good since you got money back and it immediately reinvested, like this I have to wait a bit longer, yet when I increase my investments here in August it won't be a problem anymore.
I also do understand that claims will take long to run out... Yet 20 years?
Didn't even know that is possible, lol
A German Platform for lending out credits completely kicks out private investors, so... Me.
Because institutional ones bring them more money, yet I was there for 6 to 8 years around. Where big investments, great payment, all perfectly on time every month part of your money + interest and directly reinvest. Well... Now a good amount from there I'll shift to Mintos since, as I said... The notes made it better for me. Money is way less pending and not paid for feelingly years like it was and still is with the claims.
The regulation was needed for Mintos. I think Mintos is planning something actual bigger, this was just a step towards it. I see a lot of room to improvement and potential, which they are trying to realise but they may committed to it a tiny bit too fast.
Overall, it's a change that will bring a more fluently working future, give it till end of the year and more will - if I am not totally mistaken - see, that this change is for the better.
I'd like to have maybe more options to invest in besides notes, but maybe this will be a bigger part of the plan the next years.
Mintos stands out with the notes now, else there are casual lending platforms everywhere with partly bad offers.
Also a lot went down fast and became useless or even got deleted. Mintos has to go on and go ahead, the markets are getting faster and faster, losing any momentum is bad for the company and the investors....
Some are upset, but after all... People also often dislike changes, yet this here is a really fast changing place and investing is never a safe bet.
We can't blame Mintos if we lose money instead of gaining (though idk how to lose money here, I always just gained interest and am always in "+"). It's a risk we do take and we are informed about and should know as investors in general.
No investment is ever fully safe.1
Fabian Simon Walter
Where was it mentioned?Also, two things about the supposedly 'early' communication:1. One month is very little to suddenly have to sell all the assets. The earliest communication I could find, was 25th of May, here: https://www.mintos.com/blog/mintos-investors-qa-lets-talk-about-notes/It was a QA session where we as INVESTORS actually had to ASK Mintos how they would handle the Secondary Market, and there it was stated that the secondary market will be closed.
- So, take note: First, There was not a pro-active communication from Mintos but rather the Investors had to ask for the implications. Secondly, the communication was 1 month prior. One would have to be a SUPER active, constantly reading EVERY blog note to get notified on this, and even then one would have 1 month prior notice on such an extreme change.
2. It is very unclear from the blog posts or emails that the implication is that the Secondary Market will become unavailable. That should have been the main message!! Maybe even in the subject line: 'Caution! Secondary Market unavailable from July'!!Now, as an outsider, how am I supposed to know that 'Notes is now launched!' has anything to do with my liquidity? I have read the emails, and the main message was that this is a new form of loans and it's better. So I thought: "Ok, seems fine". I wouldn't even know that it's such a big deal, let alone the implications on liquidity.
This is such a bad way to communicate, I'm furious. Seriously, they should feel really bad.
Martins Sulte (Mintos), waiting for your reply.1
It is still communicated on the website that the secondary market is a great place to liquify your investments if needed. It is stated that about 500.000 euros of trades are made each day on average on the Secondary Market.
Taking a screenshot for future evidence:1
Couldn't agree more Bernd Rietberg. i feel exactly the way you do , Mintos never communicate it clearly that second market will not be available ...1
Bernd Rietberg - the secondary market exists for Notes but not for Claims; so the statement on their website is not wrong.1
Well... the secondary market for notes has 'just' started two weeks ago, so I can't imagine it to be that big. It can become big again, that is true. But, in that perspective, they are seriously overstating their secondary market, which when I now think about it is fraudulently misinforming potential investors. And that is some serious wrong-doing.1
you got a point there, Bernd Rietberg1
"We also would have liked to continue running the Secondary Market for claims until all loans have finished. But the regulator was of a different opinion and they required us to close it."
I hope you understand now that with that you have created more problems/erosion of trust than you anticipated? Maybe it would be worthwhile to at least now to figure out some kind of "solution" or remedy at least...?
Even I, using only a few minutes of my analysis power, can propose 2 ideas
a) Swap feature for investors: Claims => Notes
b) Mintos offers to buy Claims from investors with reasonable discount and then repackages bought Claims to Notes or just sells them ASIS to some large bidder OTC
PS i also feel cheated, i have considered Mintos investments as liquid assets. Although i think i never sold anything then now my portfolio management is troubled (in polite wording). And i am not the onlyone.1
@rodrigo I couldn’t agree more. I feel the same about Mintos..1
I think we are all looking for a similar solution that allows liquidity for the blocked Claims. Please ask them for an actual plan to clear all existing Claims in the platform. My suggestion is:
Mintos buys Claims back from investors to re-packages them as Notes and launch in the platform again.1
I spoke with: Marite Urbanovica - Investor Services Agent. Here is a summary of the phone call:
Communication issues: Can we get in contact with Mintos more easily in the future? Will phone calls come back in the future?
- They are planning that. No exact date.
- Why was the secondary market closed?
- Regulator decided to close the secondary market for claims. Claims are not regulated products, thus they should not be existing.
- When was it decided by the regulator?
Probably in May. She will come back to that.
- Why was it done so quickly?
- This was the decision of the management/regulator. She will ask.
4. Would it have been possible to discuss with the regulator to delay it a bit longer, for the protection of the investors?
She will come back about this as well.
5. Why didn't you communicate it more clearly? Was it because of fear of panic sales?
- Will check with management and marketing.
- Marite: "Maybe it could have been due to panic sales".
6. What are potential solutions? Are you working on something?
- For now, the only information she has that the Secondary Market will keep being closed.
7. Do you agree that there should be a solution?
- From the perspective of the investors, yes. But from the other side, I can not comment. There were for sure no bad intentions she says.
- I reiterated that maybe there have been no bad intentions, maybe there have been. Sometimes people do bad things with the best intentions (see WWII). Even if there were good intentions, there have been made mistakes (communication, quickness of the discussions).
They will be coming back to the unanswered questions this week.
I recorded the conversation on my Macbook.1
she barely answered 1 out of 10 of your questions, not her fault ...1
Thank you for the update, Bernd Rietberg.
Although Marite avoided the hard questions, it's relatively clear Mintos actively wanted to avoid a sell-off in the and panic Secondary Market. So there is no point in pushing further on it.
We now need to focus our pressure on Mintos implementing a solution to blocked Claims.1
Hello Undis (Mintos),
Thank you for the information. Although I'm not happy with the situation, I now understand better the timeline.
But I think Mintos needs to be aware of the main issue: The current status of having Claims that cannot be traded is NOT ACEPTABLE, and cannot be the permanent solution.
An alternate solution must be found. As some have suggested already, one such solution would be a buy back program, where Mintos buys Claims back from investors and re-packages them as Notes and make available again in the plattform.1
Wauw, what a great response! If I could upvote twice, I would.
As I understand it, there is thus also demand for having a solution to buy and sell loans.
Please Mintos, look into a solution as Cardplus and many others have proposed.1
Just like cardplus, I encourage you to implement some options for investors to request a conversion or for the lending companies to offer discounted buybacks.
You should be able cover some of your costs via fees, just like for the secondary market.1
Thousands of euro locked for many many years thank you Mintos! Excellent job I may have a loss of 60-70% of my capital !! Thanks again Mintos zero respect to the investors ..
please explain why did you shut down secondary market for claims what alternatives did you offer to your investors??
zero trust I will never invest again or recommend you to anyone0
I would have liked to see Mintos continue also offering new claims based loans, besides the regulated loan notes. I don't think it would've been impossible to offer both. Right now the notes offering is anyway weak, since us foreign currency investors have no new loans to invest in.
If anything, at the very least the secondary market for claims should've been kept open. There's no way now for me to reinvest or for others to exit their loans.
I personally will give Mintos until the end of August to work out this, but after that I will have to start to exit Mintos, since there's no meaningful loans available in the primary or secondary markets for me. 100 % of my current loans, which excludes the damn euro denominated loans in certain abysmal lending partners, are non euro denominated and thus I don't want to do euro loans.
Overall, the offering from Mintos has really become weak. Offering new claims in e.g. Uzbek soms (UZS) would've been much more interesting from an emerging market investing perspective, rather than these stupid new notes. Sophisticated investors like me won't like this new Mintos.0
Martins Sulte (Mintos),
the rationale for the complete closure of new investments in claims has now been elaborated on, so I think the case is closed. However, we investors really would need to hear back on the topic of loans denominated in other currencies than euros. If you can kindly look at replying to the thread about those?
The issue is that right now it seems Mintos is becoming euros only, but that's not being communicated, and for us with just old-styled claim based non euro loans, we are stuck not knowing how to proceed.0
It is always a risk placing a reaction in such an heated topic. First of, you have invested in long term loans. Know what you have invested in. And secondly I doubt the volatility of the second (claims) market was that high you would easily in a short term be able to sell these long term loans (which likely would have lower interest rates compared to currently issued loans, only in the last couple of months rates have been climbing again).
As a personal note, I also invested in long term loans (some currently with 6,5% interest rates with 18m remaining, and some with 7% and 8% rates that have 50m remaining). But I was fully aware of the long term commitment when making the investment (or actually when setting up my custom strategy). Of course the term can be shortened with an early rebuy (no matter the reason) by the LO.0
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